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Suggestion Military flow arrows

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Topic starter

Here in the UK, the military charts have large blue "flow arrows" to show commonly used routes into and out of the mountain training areas. It would be great to have them on EVFR to promote awareness amongst the GA community of where the military are likely to be. GA helicopters and military Hawks use the same bit of sky and there are very few "see and avoid" options

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Hi Andrew

 

I maintain all UK data for EasyVFR. Unfortunately, I don't have access to UK Military charts, only the MIL and Civil AIPs. I am therefore not familiar with the arrows you refer to but I think I understand what you are referring to.

I often think about the Low Flying Areas in Wales, for example, but have not found anywhere that the areas are specifically defined or any approach and departure corridors.

Is this something you can help with? 

I certainly agree that you wouldn't want to come near to an F-15 travelling at 400 knots whilst on a quiet VFR flight!

Once I have got some data, I will do all I can to get it loaded into our systems.

 

Many thanks

 

Dave

Heli.Lamb Heli.Lamb Topic starter 4 November 2020 22:49

@pocketfmsdarowe-com I will see what I can do. Leave it with me!

Heli.Lamb Heli.Lamb Topic starter 8 November 2020 09:43

@pocketfmsdarowe-com There are them.

What would be most useful for you, a load of photos? Hard copies? I'm not sure I can get hold of the vector data but I can try if that's what you need. I will also try and get hold of some official guidance on how the mil use them and/or the legend from the map

mil map1
mil map 2

 

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Andrew

 

I really don't know what to do here.

On the first map around Keswick, there is no LARS and it is Class G below FL095. ow, is there a MIL LFA there? We certainly don't have those in our database. A well known example is the Mach Loop.

If I can get the defined areas I can add them for sure. If you can try and locate them I will also have a look.

Personally I would never fly in that terrain without talking to London/Scottish INFO. Having said that, I read so much about people who don't want to talk to Southend Radar, where I fly from.  I have never understood that mentality.

On the second map, using the northerly arrow as an example, the airspace at that point is Class G, below Manchester TMA 1 which is Class A from 3500AMSL to FL195. However it is also covered by Warton LARS, so people should be talking to them or London INFO.

Are you a military pilot or do you just fly GA in those areas? 

I appreciate your concerns in these areas and hopefully we can come up with a solution.

I will report back with anything I can find out my end.

Dave

 

Heli.Lamb Heli.Lamb Topic starter 8 November 2020 23:12

@dave-rowe

I'm a commercial heli instructor/examiner flying in lancashire, cumbria and yorkshire. I have contacts in the military.

I spend a lot of time in the Lakes and I often get a service from warton and london but they are never able to tell me about the 2 hawks heading the opposite direction.....or the 2 osprey overtaking underneath when I'm only at 800' AGL (both relatively recent occurrences).

From the people I speak to in the GA community, there is little awareness of how the military operate in these areas and I just thought that flow arrows might at least encourage an awareness.

However, they might be more distracting than useful if not done right. I will make some further enquires to figure out a bit more and get back to you.

Heli.Lamb Heli.Lamb Topic starter 9 November 2020 15:55

@dave-rowe

tried to send you a PM but can't get it to work.

Please could you look into the airfield information for Woodvale EGOW on EVFR4 and compare it to that in the AIP?

EVFR4 airfield details under OP HRS differs from the ATZ "ACTIVE" information and these both differ from the info in AIP ENR 2.2

I might be mis-reading or there might be an error

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Andrew

What a mess! The MILAIP (last updated Jan 2019) states that the operational hours are:

HO PPR 0900-1745 Mon - Fri, or SS +30 mins, whichever is earlier.

The Civil AIP, ENR2.2 (page updated but not this data 5/11/20) states: Tue-Sun 0800-1800 (See note 1) (1 hr earlier in Summer)

Pooleys 2021 states: Sun-Thur 0900-1745 or SS+30, whichever is earlier

Now, which one applies to the office or the airfield operating hours and which one to the ATZ is anybody's guess!

I am going to try calling them tomorrow. I have a contact at Pooleys so will update them with whatever I find out. Watch this space!

 

For any data related queries/ errors or omissions they can be reported via: https://navfarm.pocketfms.com/2-ContactAirmarshal.asp. All UK reports will come to me.

 

Dave

 

Heli.Lamb Heli.Lamb Topic starter 9 November 2020 19:26

@dave-rowe

Oh I'm pleased it's not me reading it wrong! I know it's complicated at the moment over there due to staff being away and lots of NOTAMS of closure making rule 11 compliance confusing but it doesn't help when the official information is all different as well!

My pooleys plate for Woodvale vanished when I did a refresh of the EVFR aerodata earlier.

I have another local airspace update...I'll put it on the other thread.

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Apologies, Pooleys plates are in the midst of being updated. I will make sure that Woodvale is available tomorrow morning, but the others will be a couple of days.

Heli.Lamb Heli.Lamb Topic starter 9 November 2020 21:53

@dave-rowe

thanks for your efforts, likely no rush as no-one is flying around here at the moment of course.

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Hi Andrew

I spoke to Woodvale this morning. The chap was a little vague and didn't really seem to grasp the fact that there was so much conflicting information, but I understand that the MIL AIP is the correct information. I suggested that he looked to get the Civil AIP updated and I said I would contact Pooleys (which I will do).

So, I have updated the ATZ airspace to show active Mon-Fri and other days by NOTAM and put a remark against it: HRS:MON-FRI 0900-1745 (-1HR IN SUM). WARTON RDR 129.530 TO CHECK STATUS OF A/D

If you find out anything different then please let me know.

 

Dave

 

Heli.Lamb Heli.Lamb Topic starter 10 November 2020 15:17

@dave-rowe

Good effort. thanks.

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