Together we make EasyVFR
Notifications
Clear all

TMZ display

22 Posts
5 Users
0 Likes
1,042 Views
leif
Posts: 407
 leif
Beta tester
Topic starter
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago

Hello,  the display of the faint green outline of a TMZ is hardly visible.  For some reason you are using a black or a green label for the description of the TMZ.

image
21 Replies
leif
Posts: 407
 leif
Beta tester
Topic starter
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago

just an additional thing...

The airspaces  TMZ and SQK  are essentially the same.  So I believe they  may be displayed as one.

 

The airspace ASR is not very interesting, so it does not need to be so prominent on the map.

 

What is FNA ?

 

image

 

And finally, when the airspace setting tab is open, the map behind it can not be panned.  So it is difficult to watch what happens when a switch is turned on or off.

Reply
5c1242ce1c84de60ae1ea618ae44df33?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 971
Admin
Noble Member
Joined: 4 years ago

Funny how different people see things differently ;-). 

Squawk areas are quite different from TMZ’s; they are used in the UK and Germany arround busy airports to minimize the comms needed but still show ATC you are on their frequency so they can call you when needed. Personally I dont care about TMZ’s, here in NL everything above 1200ft requires a transponder anyway.

I personally find ASRs very important, high risk of running into all kind of powered and non-powered aviators, better stay out of those areas.

FNAs: Fly Neighbourly Areas. A phrase we “invented” ourselfs to address areas where no legal restrictions exists to overfly, but where its “good neighbourship” to avoid when possible. The idea was to chart all those noise sensitive areas arround airfields (locals who complain for example) as NFA so not only local pilots know of these “advisories” but also visiting pilots get to know them. But to be honest we never managed to kickoff that project 🙁

 

Reply
leif
Posts: 407
 leif
Beta tester
Topic starter
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago

Hi Rob,  I have just added a last note on my post above, when your answer came in.

FNA -  If you add a color to that one, the whole of Germany will turn that color!

In the case of Saarbrücken TMZ, I am confused to see a green label AND a black one.  They are valid for different altitudes, but they are the same airspace procedure wise.  You are supposed to squawk and listen when flying through.

 

Reply
Stewart Buckingham
Posts: 446
Beta tester
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago

In the UK, a Squawk area does NOT mandate the carriage of a transponder - it just means that, if you WANT and you have a transponder (Mode C at least IIRC), you MAY set a designated code and monitor a frequency rather than call up and ask for a service. You won't be warned of traffic and you might not even get warned if you look like you might infringe airspace, but ATC would prefer you to have the squawk and be on frequency rather than just pass through the area with the radio off or on another station.

Unfortunately the so-called "Single European Sky" is far from the same everywhere!

Reply
leif
Posts: 407
 leif
Beta tester
Topic starter
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago

interesting.  I am only familiar with the German TMZ, where the transponder is mandatory.  But then an airspace can not be both.  In my Saarbrücken example, the airspace is shown to be at the same time a SQK and a TMZ.

Reply
1 Reply
5c1242ce1c84de60ae1ea618ae44df33?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Admin
Joined: 4 years ago

Noble Member
Posts: 971

@leif I think it can? The TMZ requires you to use a transponder, and because of the  squawk area *you can* use the mentioned sqwk to indicate you are tuned to the given frequency so you dont have to ask atc a squawk. The transponder is mandatory, the sqwk not. Reduction in atc is AFIK the reason why some busy german large airports have established these sqwk areas a few years ago.

Reply
leif
Posts: 407
 leif
Beta tester
Topic starter
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago

No, inside the TMZ, if you are not controlled by ATC in some other manner, ie with an individual squawk, you are obligated to squawk the published code and listen.

Reply
1 Reply
5c1242ce1c84de60ae1ea618ae44df33?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Admin
Joined: 4 years ago

Noble Member
Posts: 971

@leif listen to what frequency? In NL everything above 1200ft is tmz, so you squawk 7000. But you are not required to listen. You can call A’dam or dutch mill fis, and they *may* give you advisories, but the pilot is not required to listen.

the squawk areas in UK and Germany reduce the atc workload because by setting a specific sqwuak you tell atc you are listing to a specific frequency. But for a TMZ you dont have to, you can also set 7000 and listen to nothing or your onboard stereo system. A TMZ does not imply a requirement for comms imho. Its only there so atc can see you. 

Reply
5c1242ce1c84de60ae1ea618ae44df33?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 971
Admin
Noble Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posted by: @leif

some other manner, ie with an individual squawk, you are obligated to squawk the published code and listen.

A TMZ has a published squawk? I don’t believe so. A SQuawk area has one, but a TMZ not. There are plenty of tmz’s without squawk area. In fact 99% of all tmz in europe dont have a squawk area

Reply
Bernhard Daenzer
Posts: 0
Beta tester
Estimable Member
Joined: 4 years ago

you guys are referring to the "listening squawk" concept...

 

that may or may not coincide with a TMZ.

the concept comes from the UK, but is for example being trialed around EDNY, the homebase of Aero FHA, too.

the idea is that a pilot flying in the area, typically in airspace class E without being actively in contact with an ATC unit would indicate through setting of a specific squawk code that he is monitoring a certain frequency and can be actively called up by a controller handling e.g. IFR traffic in the same area if needed/situation necessitates.

a typical "class E" mixed environment "hack" trying to improve safety without having to crack down with more controlled airspace...

i have no first hand reports on how well or not this concept works so far. my worry would be that certain airplanes (especially flying clubs etc...) might default to that squawk code, simply by lack of attention or habit, without necessarily responding on that frequencies and then time and attention may even be lost by trying to call someone who doesn't answer...

Reply
leif
Posts: 407
1 Reply
5c1242ce1c84de60ae1ea618ae44df33?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Admin
Joined: 4 years ago

Noble Member
Posts: 971

 @leif oookkkkkaaaayyyyyyy, so the Germans basically now made squawk areas no longer optional, but “merged” it with TMZ and that way this is compulsory now since recent March ? Now I see what you are talking about.

I have to check if the special labeling (freq+squawk code) also works for TMZ before we can remove the squawk areas for Germany. I will come back to this one, please allow is a few days...... 

Reply
5c1242ce1c84de60ae1ea618ae44df33?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 971
Admin
Noble Member
Joined: 4 years ago

I had a few discussions about this german tmz/squawk area issue. It is fairly easy in EV4 to have the TMZ list the frequency and squawk in its label like is done now for squawk areas, so when that is done we could renove the squawk areas in germany. 

However, this is not so easy in EV3, it would mean a software update what takes some time that we’d rather spend on EV4.

So we think its best to keep it the way it is now, our graphics friend wil make the squawk areas stand out a bit more on the map, and we monitor migrationumbers of ev3 users to ev4. When that looks promising, or when we have to do an ev3 update anyway, we do this tmz label change in ev3 and get rid of the german squawk areas.

Reply
Bernhard Daenzer
Posts: 0
Beta tester
Estimable Member
Joined: 4 years ago

is it confirmed that this applies to all german TMZ's?

or only a subset? as the AIP is just a "list", not sure if complete with all TMZ's? 

Reply
leif
Posts: 407
 leif
Beta tester
Topic starter
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago

ENR 1-19 lists them all.  Apart from that there are airspaces that require a transponder.  (Above 5000ft and most CTRs).  But these are not called TMZ in Germany.

Reply
leif
Posts: 407
 leif
Beta tester
Topic starter
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago

Someone has removed all German TMZ and most of the squawk areas.  This must have been a mistake?

They do appear in EV3 !
cycle 08.0003

Reply
5c1242ce1c84de60ae1ea618ae44df33?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 971
Admin
Noble Member
Joined: 4 years ago

As far as I know Marcel has worked on this together with help from some german friends. Squawk areas are removed because they dont exists as auch anymore in germany (squawk areas are by definition volutntary), but TMZ areas are ammended with required frequenxiy and transpondercode. I checked friedrichshafen (its the only one I know a bit), looks ok to me. What tmz are accidently removed do you think? Based on an example I can investiigate further....

Reply
leif
Posts: 407
 leif
Beta tester
Topic starter
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago

I found the problem to be in my settings.  Show airspace ... “depends on class” was on.  I do not remember having touched anything there.   But it was highlighted and therefore removed from view.

Please check the squawk/frequency display for ETNT TMZ

Reply
leif
Posts: 407
 leif
Beta tester
Topic starter
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago

I think the button „depends on class“ should be removed for TMZ.  It‘s mandatory, so why should I select a certain class only?

Reply
leif
Posts: 407
 leif
Beta tester
Topic starter
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago

the frequency for ELLX squawk area is wrong

image
Reply
a6a95ab45bd5c97a653265417579bd2b?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 9
Admin
Active Member
Joined: 4 years ago

Slow reply due to a week off, but I have forwarded your PiRep to the Airmarshal for Belgium and Luxembourg. I'm quite sure he'll check and amend where necessary! This should definitely be fixed in the next AIRAC cycle, but most likely already buy next Friday. Thanks for reporting!

Reply
Share:
My cart
Your cart is empty.

Looks like you haven't made a choice yet.