Together we make EasyVFR
Share:
Notifications
Clear all

Traffic pattern


9e962d1fa5fdf1ca6869ab6765cafef1?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 79
Topic starter
Estimable Member
Joined: 8 months ago

The traffic pattern for LHFM description contains the 2 numbers 1500ft (1060ft). It took me some time to find out that the 1st one is MSL and the one in brackets is AGL. Some legend might be useful?

And you might want to avoid the overlapping of the graphics and the Rwy table.

The density altitude (2nd line of headline) is calculated from the actual weather data?

LHFM traffic pattern
16 Replies
b5c830c40d747fdb5ae6278e1fc0a4e0?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 236
Beta tester
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago

I have also raised the issue of Airfield height/Circuit heights a couple of times to no avail!

Showing circuit height as a combined AGL circuit height ( QNH) causes confusion to anyone who uses QFE as is mainly used in the UK by ATC.

Can we please have Airfield Height shown in AGL and circuit height shown separately as per all UK guides Pooleys/AFE or even Skydemon.

Reply
5c1242ce1c84de60ae1ea618ae44df33?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 964
Admin
Famed Member
Joined: 4 years ago

Alan, we added the AGL specially on your request. IMHO AGL is hardly used. I really don’t see how airfield height can be done in AGL, its always zero?!

We talked about the AMSL/AGL combined display and as suggested by another user we did not add AMSL/AGL to the numbers to avoid cluttering. 

Density altitude is currently calculated indeed from current METARS and TAFS, but in the future we plan to use the DWD icon model data also to be able to forecast density altitude further in the future and further away from a metar/taf station.

 

 

Reply
b5c830c40d747fdb5ae6278e1fc0a4e0?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 236
Beta tester
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago

Rob,

Yes I meant to say amsl however however it is still not shown correctly. I can only suggest you look at all the airfields in Pooleys or look how Skydemon do it and show circuit height.

Currently Ev4 shows my home airfield, Calton Moor 990ft ( no clarification of what 990ft is?) it then shows Circuit Altitude as 1790ft amsl.

What it needs to show is Airfield height at amsl, in this case Calton Moor 990ft amsl. Circuit Height 800ft agl (QFE)Then there is no confusion betweeen QNH and QFE. If someone does want to fly QNH then so be it, but the majority of pilots in the UK when landing at an airfield use QFE as a base point altimeter setting (height above airfield threshold) which is what ATC will give them when joining the circuit. QNH for landing is not usually given or only on request.

The norm in training in the UK is still to use QFE.

Reply
a82ba4be1a792ce8fff251489ebb3429?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 123
Reputable Member
Joined: 3 years ago

Traffic pattern in most european countries is given in AMSL which generally is about 1000 ft above airfield alt also in AMSL and sometimes m !

Reply
leif
Posts: 405
 leif
Beta tester
Prominent Member
Joined: 4 years ago

sorry to intervene.  We will not implement the UK system in Europe.

altitudes shown in Numbers - be it a TP or an airspace-  is always MSL  

(altitudes) in brackets are generally heights.  This is ICAO standard.

Reply
a82ba4be1a792ce8fff251489ebb3429?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 123
Reputable Member
Joined: 3 years ago

?

Reply
b5c830c40d747fdb5ae6278e1fc0a4e0?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 236
Beta tester
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago

I feel a Brexit moment coming on!

Reply
a82ba4be1a792ce8fff251489ebb3429?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 123
Reputable Member
Joined: 3 years ago

unfortunately!!!

Reply
leif
Posts: 405
 leif
Beta tester
Prominent Member
Joined: 4 years ago

Alan, don’t leave us.  I personally think the TP display still has room for improvement.

Not so much because of the heights, but as you have mentioned, runways that are oriented N/S are cluttering with the info box.

Reply
b5c830c40d747fdb5ae6278e1fc0a4e0?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 236
Beta tester
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago

My thoughts on Ev4...

The problem I see is that Ev4 is trying to be all things to all pilots in all European countries whereas somehow it needs to be tailored to each individual country which it sees as a potential market. How this conundrum is resolved I am thankfully pleased is not for me to worry about!

SkyDemon at the moment is the main player in the UK which has a quite a large GA pilot population whereas Ev currently only has a small presence. The UK does do things differently compared to mainland Europe of that there is no doubt but to appeal more UK pilot users Ev needs to be more user friendly to use than it is presently in order to increase its  market share.

Ev3 has limitations and is no doubt is coming to the end of its days but I do worry sometimes that Ev4 may not fill the void for me it will eventually leave. I took the decision back in July for the time being to hang in, in the hope that things improve and that is what I will do, but I do get the feeling sometimes that no-one is listening....

I have after all only been flying for 35 years and have 3000+ hours so what do I know !

Alan.

 

Reply
9e962d1fa5fdf1ca6869ab6765cafef1?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 79
Topic starter
Estimable Member
Joined: 8 months ago

To me the solution to THAT problem looks quite simple (not to the Brexit, beware) - why not introduce one or several user-serviceable configuration parameters with which everyone can tailor some useful user interface features like how to display airfield information? Could be one setting serves all configured countries or even be settable per configured country, depending on the parameter...

Reply
a82ba4be1a792ce8fff251489ebb3429?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 123
Reputable Member
Joined: 3 years ago

Honestly great idea Ernst, you should as well make a similar proposal for Johnson !


 

Reply
9e962d1fa5fdf1ca6869ab6765cafef1?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 79
Topic starter
Estimable Member
Joined: 8 months ago

Would like to but I'm sure he won't listen ? 

Reply
a82ba4be1a792ce8fff251489ebb3429?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 123
Reputable Member
Joined: 3 years ago

I' m afraid you're right!

Reply
5c1242ce1c84de60ae1ea618ae44df33?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 964
Admin
Famed Member
Joined: 4 years ago

Ok, it took me a while to get an idea why this exploded in my face because AFIK we did implement the AGL circuit altitudes a few weeks ago as requested by Alan. I didn’t understand why Alan was still so unhappy, but if I resume my investigations correctly then its simply because we forgot to implement AGL circuit height in a specific situation, and that is what is happening at his bome base. 

When EV4 draws the runway diagram in the QuickInfo-AirfieldInfo window it prints circuit altitudes either along the runways, or solely as a single line topleft. To be honest I dont recall the exact conditions, I must check that. But it turns out in one format agl is added, while in the other its not. See these two screenshots: 

image
image

I will have this AGL added to the first situation also of course.

As to altitudes without AGL/AMSL/FL indication, I dont feel a need to change this IMHO. When nothing is specified then its always AMSL. This is used through the entire application (in fact has been the last 15 years through PocketFMS desktop/WinCe and EasyVFR3) and seems even to be ICAO standard as Leif mentioned.

So if I am correct its just a small implementation that has been missed and will be added soon of course. No need to add extra switches and usersettings what makes things only more complicated. Using AMSL in combination with AGL for circuitheights is useful for every pilot everywhere IMHO.

I keep my fingers crossed this makes everybody happy 🙂

Reply
b5c830c40d747fdb5ae6278e1fc0a4e0?s=80&d=retro&r=g
Posts: 236
Beta tester
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago

Rob,

You are making the Airfield Plates unnecessarily complex with umpteen different numbers and different variations  sometimes overlaid on each other all making it harder to quickly assimilate in a flying aircraft.

It all needs to be kept simple!...

Personally all I would like to see on an Airfield plate is:-

1. Airfield elevation in amsl at the top of the plate next to the Airfield name.

2. The Circuit/Pattern height in agl lower down.

Nothing more is needed!

However they do need to be shown exactly what they are, either amsl or agl.

With just these two numbers, even if there is no ATC at the airfield, you can fly the circuit either in QNH or QFE as you prefer.

 

Alan.

 

 

 

Reply
Share:
My cart
Your cart is empty.

Looks like you haven't made a choice yet.